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03/08/2012

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Daniel S. Goldberg

Can you say more about why this is "super-important?"

Paul Kelleher

Here's my favorite:

If one discounts health benefits at 5% per year, one will view as equivalent one billion lives lost 425 years from now and one life lost today.

Others from Menzel:

“Comparison of mobile coronary care units (MCCU) with a prevention program of screening children for elevated cholesterol and following it up with recommended dietary changes found a cost-effectiveness advantage for MCCU of over 2:1 when costs and added life were uniformly discounted at 5.0%. It found an opposite 3:1 advantage for screening, however, when the years of added life were not discounted.”

“A well-known study of Pap smears to screen for cervical cancer revealed that if costs and benefits were uniformly discounted at 5.0%, then, begun at age 20, they had a relatively modest cost of $10,000 per added year of life [if] done every 4 years. They caught more cancers if done every 3 years, but at a marginal cost of $185,000 per year of life. If those added years of life were not discounted, however, even screening at 3-year intervals on average saved at the relatively modest marginal cost rate of $20,000/year of life.”

love actuary

It's not clear to me that this is hogwash. Taken personally when I ask you: knowing that you are going to die at some point, would you rather have 1 year of life tacked on to that point immediately, or one year tacked on to that point in 40 years? Given that you may not be around in 40 years, the answer is clearly that you would prefer to have the extra year of life right now, thus some difference in value.

But we're dealing with entire populations and I think the analogy still holds. Would you rather improve everyone's wellbeing (say, an additional 1 LY) today, or wait 40 years to do so? You would rather improve everyone's wellbeing today, as in 40 years there will only be a fraction of the current population still alive. Not to mention the 40 years-worth of individuals who will be born in the mean time.

Thus why is it silly to assume that we should not discount the benefits? The benefit delivered in the future seems naturally worth less than that delivered today. Perhaps we disagree with their mechanism for discounting?

Paul Kelleher

"Love Actuary",

Thanks for your comment. Before addressing it, I just want to make it clear that here I am critiquing *just one*, *specific* argument for discounting. So I did not say here that discounting is "hogwash" or "silly," as you imply. I claimed only that this specific argument for it doesn't work. I have critiqued other arguments here (pdf): http://bit.ly/xljGdu

But now to your specific arguments for discounting. Your first thought experiment certainly will lead people to say they want the earlier life year "tacked on", and for the reason you envisage: that unless the earlier life year is tacked on, the person may well be dead in 40 years. But that is simply not a good thought experiment for testing the quite *general* claim that discounters make, which is that a health benefit--any health benefit--is more valuable the sooner in time it occurs. You foresee that I take issue with your suggestion that we can easily move from the intrapersonal to the interpersonal case, but even if we stick to the intrapersonal case, it is not at all clear that people discount nonlifesaving benefits (which is what the discounters say we should do). Imagine, for example, that we asked people this: ould you rather have a serious nonfatal health condition adversely affect your 40s or your 50s? It's not at all clear to me that most people would say "my 50s." Menzel (in the paper I link to in the post) reports this:

"Redelmeier and Heller (1993) found a fairly low individual-utility time preference in comparing present nonlifesaving health benefits with similar benefits in 5-10 years in the future: a mean of 0.25% as an annual discount rate. Also, 62% of their respondents expressed a zero discount rate, and 10% had a *negative* discount rate (preference for the later benefit)."

In short, once we move beyond lifesaving benefits, it's not clear that people's intrapersonal preferences are as you say they are.

I also don't understand why you assume I would "rather improve everyone's wellbeing today, as in 40 years there will only be a fraction of the current population still alive." I certainly don't yet see why that gives me reason to choose today's beneficiaries rather than tomorrow's, especially if my obligation is to society rather than to any specific individual. Are you assuming that I have some obligation to today's individuals that I don't have to tomorrow's? I would want to see an argument for that thesis. I don't agree it can just be assumed.

Daniel S. Goldberg

Hmmm. I get why the discounting matters a lot for what we'd like to see as the accuracy of cost-effectiveness types of analysis.

I'm less clear on why the discounting matters a great deal ethically.

(Disclosure: I'm ultimately unclear on why cost-effectiveness analysis is seen to matter ethically so much. I mean, we might have ethical obligations to do all sorts of inefficient things. So the fact that a given intervention is cost-effective or cost-saving may or may not be all that helpful in the normative inquiry.

Interestingly, Norman Daniels's recent paper in THC goes some way to both clarifying and deepening my confusion. It clears things up because it offers some account of why measurable assessments of lives is highly relevant to what policies we ought to pursue. It deepens my confusion in the sense that Daniels ultimately concludes -- plausibly, I think -- that the arguments simply aren't dispositive and we have no choice but to rely on public reason to have any hope of reaching acceptable policies.

Paul Kelleher

Daniel, if efficiency ever matters, then discounting matters, since discounting affects how efficient a policy/program/project is said to be. One is entitled to be indifferent about the issue of discounting only if one says efficiency never matters. You're willing to say that, right?

Paul Kelleher

I meant to ask at the end: You're *not* willing to say [efficiency never matters], right?

Daniel S. Goldberg

I absolutely agree that if efficiency ever matters, than discounting matters.

And I also agree that there are cases in which efficiency matters.

I am perhaps less sanguine about the weight of those cases ("weight" being intentionally ambiguous here).

If one were to doubt that efficiency is a particularly weighty phenomenon for ethical analysis, then one would not be inclined to see the issues of discounting as particularly weighty.

(Recognizing, of course, that reasonable people might well disagree on how important efficiency considerations are).

Paul Kelleher

I guess I just don't understand the hesitation to concede that efficiency is very important. Suppose we have to choose between (1) preventing 100 deaths by treating and (in effect) curing 50 people of AIDS today or (2) preventing 500 deaths from AIDS through a prevention program whose benefits (i.e. "deaths averted") do not accrue until 2050. Who would say that the efficiency consideration (the fact that 450 more deaths can be averted with program 2) is not "particularly weighty"? I'm surprised you would be inclined to say this, given your interest in social determinants and prevention.

Or am I missing something?

Paul Kelleher

Another typo!: Program (1) should say it prevents 50 deaths. But it doesn't really matter. 50 and 100 are still a lot less than 500.

Daniel S. Goldberg

Well, I might be confused, but couldn't one argue that what is most morally significant about saving 450 more lives by 2050 is not captured by the idea that it is more efficient.

There might be all sorts of plausible reasons for favoring one of these options over the other, but I'm not particularly sure why analyses of their respective efficiencies add much. Rather, all the usual kinds of ethical considerations (justice, distribution, future publics, identified vs. statistical victims, etc.) seem to me to be what really matter. Ethically, why should I care whether the arrangement saves money or not?

I guess part of the issue turns on what you mean by "efficiency" in this context. What do you mean? (no intention to be snarky here).

Paul Kelleher

I think we're using "efficient" to mean different things. You seem to be using it to mean "saves money." I'm using it to mean "produces most benefits (with the budget we've got)."

Of course you are right that we might have *other* reasons besides efficiency to select one policy over another. All I'm saying is that efficiency (in the sense I mean) is important. As for the suggestion that "justice, distribution, future publics, identified vs. statistical victims, etc." might be what's doing the work, I would respectfully suggest that each and every one of these implicates a complex *set* of considerations, a set that is surely going to include efficiency (in the sense I mean).

Daniel S. Goldberg

Sounds reasonable.

My disagreement is more with the notion that a health intervention must "pay for itself" to be justified, which seems to me to be dubious. Sometimes ethics might require a significant expenditure that is not recouped. I'm thinking of the prevention paradox (or one of them, at least): the fact that preventing some chronic illnesses is not cost-saving because those people will live longer and ultimately require more health care expenditures does not imply that we ought not prevent those chronic illnesses.

Paul Kelleher

Yeah, that's what efficiency means here. Indeed, efficiency in cost-effectiveness and cost-benefit analysis *is* a form of recouping investment: what's recouped is a (health) benefit, not money back into the coffers.

Daniel S. Goldberg

How can the value of that benefit can be operationalized other than in terms of money?

Paul Kelleher

Cost-effectiveness analysis uses quality-adjusted life years (QALYs) as its unit of measurement, e.g.

Daniel S. Goldberg

Ah yes (although don't some analyses use DALYs instead or in addition?)

This is a very helpful conversation, thanks. Aside from reminding me I need to go back and read my Broome, I think what generally bugs me about CE analysis is the tendency to naturalize inappropriately by simply presuming that the increase in welfare is self-evidently ethical, without actually supplying the inferences and assumption that would ground the ethical conclusion.

What I mean is that it is of course possible to supply all sorts of consequentialist claims and arguments that would ground a claim that cost-effective or cost-saving interventions are ethically optimal. But IMO those arguments are in much health policy, health economics, and HSR discourse frequently left unstated and unargued. There are myriad reasons to doubt that a particular intervention that is cost-effective or cost-saving is ethically optimal simply by virtue of the fact that it is cost-effective or cost-saving (which is what gives rise to my [roughly deontological?] notion that we may have ethical obligations to do all sorts of inefficient things).

Of course, as a philosopher, you are not likely to make such an error, to naturalize without justification a particular arrangement of goods and services as it relates to health and its distribution. So I suppose my brief is not with those who endeavor to supply the claims and justify the conclusions, but with what I perceive as the great majority that do not.

Franklindmadoff.wordpress.com

It's absolutely appropriate to discount a future year of life 40 years hence for both the time-value-of-money and probability that that investment will make a difference.

The big disconnect here is that a year of life in the future is probably worth a lot more 40 years hence in current dollar terms (well above the rate of inflation) because people will be a hell of a lot more productive 40 years hence than they will be today.

In 1900 the average worker made around 500/yr, yet 70K/yr is about $2700 in 1900 dollars, more than 3x the avg wage at the time. In other words, economic growth dramatically outstripped inflation. We are richer today than we were 100+ years ago and will likely be substantially richer 40 years in the future.

So it's really a question of what discount rate you choose and what rate of economic growth you impute to adjust the value of that future year of life. Intuitively I think that the discount factor ought to be higher than the life-year adjustment and certainly not greater than the present life year.

Ultimately I don't think the effective rate of discounting itself is very instructive here in terms of strictly adjusting for inflation or even economic growth. The reason we ought to discount that future life year is probably because a life saved today is far more certain than solving problems 40 years hence. In other words, if we're investing in future life saving technology, or what have you, preferentially over current lives it ought to be because expected value of those future lives saved far out number current and more marginal uses of those resources (in terms of the raw number of lives saved, quality of life, etc). So, in other words, an investment in something like antibiotic development ought to be easily defensible, but investing in an orphan drug to save the lives of people with some rare disorder 40 years hence with current technology... not so much.


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