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08/02/2011

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Daniel S. Goldberg

There's far too much here to do justice in a comment to a blog post, so I'll just go with this one here:

I disagree with about 90 percent of this post. Maybe we can discuss sometime!

;-)

Daniel S. Goldberg

Can't resist:

I think it is simply false to say that there is "very little evidence" that income inequality does not cause poor health. I think there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting exactly this. What there also is is a tremendous amount of evidence suggesting the contrary, and also a tremendous amount of debate regarding precisely what the evidence does and does not demonstrate.

There are certainly legitimate grounds to question the causal relationship. But to make this claim is not equivalent to making the claim that there is very little evidence in favor of the causal link between income inequality and poor health.

Ok, I'll stop now. ;-)

Paul Kelleher

Sorry Daniel, but I have absolutely no reason to question these conclusions:

From Deaton's 2003 survey (linked above): "There is no robust correlation between life expectancy and income inequality among the rich countries, and the correlation across the states and cities of the United States is almost certainly the result of something that is correlated with income inequality, but that is not income inequality itself."

Leigh, Jencks, and Smeeding (quoted above): "The best cross-nation studies now uniformly fail to find a statistically reliable relationship between economic inequality and longevity."

See also the Kenworthy.

Would be delighted, obviously, the learn why they are wrong.

Daniel S. Goldberg

Hey Paul,

Hmm . . . the fact there are many epidemiologists who do in fact adduce significant evidence of a causal link between income inequality and poor health does IMO give one grounds to question the conclusions you endorse, even if those conclusions end up being right (which they may well be).

Sources include:

Kawachi and Subramanian (2004)
Wilkinson (2006)
Babones (2008)
Elgar (2010)

(Among many others).

You cite Kenworthy, but Kenworthy is issuing a critique of Wilkinson & Pickett, thus suggesting there is in fact evidence of a connection that is to be critiqued (if there wasn't, what would be the purpose of a critique)?

My point here is not to suggest that you must be convinced by this data. There may well be little or no association between income inequality and health. But to argue this is not equivalent to asserting that there is no evidence of such a connection. I continue to believe that the latter is simply false, and the citation of studies denying the connection does not by itself license the conclusion of its nonexistence (it might if there were no conflicting evidence, but my belief is that there is a great deal of such evidence).

That said, I think of the various points in your post, the most compelling and best supported (IMO) is the very one we are arguing, viz., that while social inequalities may determine health, income inequalities may not do so or may do so to a much lesser extent than other kinds of inequalities. So it is not this point that I disagree with as much, but rather the characterization that no evidence exists for the alternative.

Paul Kelleher

Daniel,

The three critiques I've relied on here all seem to me to raise serious questions about the putative evidence others have invoked to establish a correlation. Deaton, Leigh-Jencks-Smeeding, and Kenworthy all argue that much of the international data relied upon by others is actually problematic. (This is even before we get to inferences about causation.) Where the data are not questioned, the inferences from it are (--the Kenworthy strikes me as quite compelling here, and I do not understand your claim that by critiquing them, Kenworthy is conceding the validity of Wilkinson/Pickett's putative evidence).

And then there is the Deaton/Lubotsky study, which seems to me to be pretty conclusive about the US case. (I have only seen one critical article, but I find the reply to it by D/L--the second paper of theirs linked above--to be decisive).

Perhaps in the end I am biased, having found all of these authors in the past and on other issues to be quite fair-minded, without suspect agendas, and judged by their peers to be very reliable and sensible. Perhaps I'm also too much swayed by Deaton's perennial candidacy for the Nobel Prize for his work on the very methods one would use to suss out the causal links at issue.

All that said, I will happily take your advice and moderate the way I present my skepticism in the future, skeptical though I remain. I will encourage others to read the studies you and I both have identified, and I'll encourage them to judge for themselves---as I myself in fact have done and recorded in the blog post.

As always, thanks for the engagement on important issues.

Brad F

Paul
This abstract caught my eye in 2010, and I had a very interesting chat via email with author at that time re: findings, and further work they are doing on high income/low education folks and the converse--and of course, their outcomes.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/274.abstract

The exchange excluded, above thought provoking. I have seen several studies--and wish i could cite but cant recall sources--examining higher M&M rates in low SES neighborhoods in which minority and whites both suffer worse outcomes vs more affluent comparator regions.

Brad

Brendan Saloner

Hi Paul,

I know a lot less about this topic than I should since two of my main interests are income inequality and health, and I really should read the Deaton study you cite, but just from what you say in your post it seems wrong to control for racial composition in those state and city-level analyses. Racial inequality and income inequality are likely to be correlated, and conceptually they stem from related social processes (social exclusion, weak social cohesion, and historical injustices), so when you control for percent black your inequality coefficient will only reflect some residual inequality not soaked up by the race coefficient. I would interpret the finding as showing that most of the measurable income inequality's effect on health is mediated by racial inequality. I do agree with the medical apartheid hypothesis, but I would note that the few whites that end up going to the hospitals where blacks go tend to be poor and low educated.

What do you think?

Paul Kelleher

B,

I'll send you the papers and perhaps when you get a chance you can read them and let me know if Deaton and Lubotsky do not allay your concerns. As you know, I'm not the guy to be explaining this to you.

That said, you write, "I would interpret the finding as showing that most of the measurable income inequality's effect on health is mediated by racial inequality." Could that be all D/L are saying, as well? As quoted in another comment above, here is Deaton from his very comprehensive 2003 study (linked to in the post):

"There is no robust correlation between life expectancy and income inequality among the rich countries, and the correlation across the states and cities of the United States is almost certainly the result of something that is correlated with income inequality, but that is not income inequality itself."

D/L are after the causal claim, and if the correlation fails in all rich countries other than the U.S., and quote-unquote disappears when controlling for fraction black, then is it not safe to conclude that income inequality _itself_ is not the culprit?

PlayBlue Judy

This is a diverse and complex post and and I probably agree and disagree in equal parts but not really sure if its a racial problem in the health service or a socio-economic one.

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